88 The Generosity of the Home Building Industry - Matthew Baehr Nov 24 2021

Greg Bray: [00:00:00] Hello everybody, and welcome to today's special episode of The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with BlueTangerine,

Kevin Weitzel: and I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse.

Greg Bray: We're excited today, and the reason I said it's a special is cause we're welcoming Matt Baehr, the Executive Director of Homes for HOPE, who is not a VP of Marketing and a home builder, but does something very different. So, Matt, why don't you uh, give us that short introduction and help us get to know you a little bit as we get started.

Matthew Baehr: Sure thanks for having me, Greg. I guess the best way to introduce myself is to say that I'm a Christian, a husband, and a father [00:01:00] of four. I've spent more than 17 years in the nonprofit sector, and I've had the privilege of being the Executive Director of Homes for HOPE since 2019. I'm a Jersey boy at heart through and through. I grew up in Jersey and now I live in Pennsylvania.

Greg Bray: Is that upgrade from Jersey?

Matthew Baehr: Not in my opinion. I love Jersey, but most people would say yes.

Kevin Weitzel: There's a lot of misconceptions about New Jersey because it is the Garden State, and there's a lot of New Jersey that's absolutely beautiful.

Matthew Baehr: Absolutely.

Kevin Weitzel: Absolutely.

Matthew Baehr: Join the Jersey advocacy train with me.

Kevin Weitzel: Alright. Outside of location and where your working, what's a nice little interesting factoid about yourself that nobody knows?

Matthew Baehr: Sure. I would say my first job after getting married was as a residential land surveyor in New Jersey, so not very many people know that. Then prior to that, I was in commission sales and was an evening radio DJ.

Kevin Weitzel: Sunday.

Matthew Baehr: Sounds like that was in your past as well.

Kevin Weitzel: I did radio puking for one day, and I was like, no.

Greg Bray: How'd you decide to get into DJing? [00:02:00] How'd that come about? Just curious.

Matthew Baehr: I did it in college and I loved it. I was on the radio every night, but I was only actually at the studio for about two hours a week and I would just pre-record all the shows. So there's a little bit of inside baseball into the radio industry for you guys.

Kevin Weitzel: Call sign still live? Do you remember it?

Matthew Baehr: No. It was like twenty years ago. I do not remember it.

Greg Bray: Well, Matt, why don't we um, dive in a little bit more into Homes for HOPE and the kinds of things you guys are doing cause we'd like to learn more today. That's really why we've had you here and want to understand it.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. Absolutely. I guess I would say that Homes for HOPE is the building industry's response to global poverty.

What we do is we partner with the building industry to invest in the dreams of families who are living in underserved communities around the world, and we do so for the glory of God. The way we go about it is mainly by providing biblically-based training, saving services, and microloans averaging around $300.

So, entrepreneurs can start or expand businesses and break the cycle of generational poverty. So, it's mind blowing that [00:03:00] $300 will start a business, but that's what we do. Over the last five years, 98% of the loans have been repaid and that money gets recycled and sent back out as more loans, so the impact just continues to increase exponentially.

Kevin Weitzel: So, a lot of people know I'm a LinkedIn junkie. Like, I watch the feed every day probably to the point of where it's detrimental to my job, but I've seen Homes for HOPE posts by builders. Like, I just saw one from Providence Homes uh, where it looks like they're doing they're like seventh or eighth partnership with you guys. How does that even work?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. So, what'll happen is a builder will identify an upcoming build that they have as a Homes for HOPE project, and they'll go through their normal process of building, marketing, and selling the home. What we'll do is we'll recruit donated and discounted services on the build from their trades and suppliers, which increases the profit margin on the sale of the home.

Then, once the home is sold, instead of investing that back into their own business, they'll donate that profit, [00:04:00] usually to Homes for HOPE, and then we deploy that as capital for these loans around the world. The crazy thing is it only costs HOPE, because of the way our model is set up, which is pretty unique in the nonprofit world, it only costs HOPE about $25 to serve one family for a year. Which means that if you're generating say a hundred thousand dollars in profit on a home, you're serving thousands of families around the world. Then that money gets again, gets paid back and sent back out as more loans.

Kevin Weitzel: So, they're using the home profit as a vehicle to generate the revenue to donate. Do you ever have any just crazy generous people that want to just do the whole kitten caboodle?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, so usually it takes awhile to be able to get to that point, but Steve Brooks with Grand Homes, for instance, in Dallas, they've been partnering with us since 2008. They've gotten to the point now where they just donate the whole sales price of the home, which is incredibly generous.

You mentioned Providence Homes. They've been partnering with us since [00:05:00] 2002 and again, on their seventh home. It's an incredible experience to build relationships with these builders over the course of time. One of the things that I've been most impressed with about the building industry is how generous it is. You don't have to convince anybody in the building industry to be generous. It's just baked into the culture, and I love that aspect of it.

Greg Bray: So, Matt, let me address kind of my personal questions. Why go through all the hassle of building a home to do this? Why not just go and ask people to write a check? What got you guys deciding, Hey, this is a way that we wanted to raise funds? Sorry if that's the wrong word, but I think that's what we're doing here. Why did you go in this direction?

Matthew Baehr: There's a couple of ways I could go with this. I think I'll tell our founding story a little bit later, but what it does is it gives your staff and your trade partners and your suppliers, et cetera, the opportunity to be a part of something bigger than themselves.

It allows everyone to do something significant together, which is something the generation entering, and soon leading the workforce is looking for. [00:06:00] Another aspect too, is that the building industry can really relate to the entrepreneurs that we're serving around the world because they too are entrepreneurs, they worked hard to get to where they are. They know what it takes to start a business and be a blessing to their communities, so they can see their own story in the story of the people that we're serving.

I mentioned the generation that's entering and soon to be the workforce. I think a lot of what makes this a successful program is there's been a shift in the history of giving over the past 20 years or so, where a while ago people would give obligatorily. They would give because it's the right thing to do, but with the advent of the internet and people growing up with the internet, it did a lot of things.

Obviously, you guys are experts in this area, but one of the things that it did was it gave people, donors, for instance, access to information about the places in which they were giving. So, they were able to find out more about where the money was going, what it was doing, what kind of [00:07:00] impact it was having, and so they've moved from a more obligatory giving mindset to an impact driven mindset and giving.

They want to know where the money is going, what it's doing, and they want to be involved. They don't want to just give to a cause they want to be a part of a cause community, and so I think that plays into the success of this program because it's whole teams coming together to be a part of something bigger than themselves and accomplish great work.

Greg Bray: Something you said there that kind of hit me was the idea that when you're building a house, there's a whole lot of business owners involved in that whole process. It's not just the owner of the building company, right?

Every one of those trades is really an independent company at some level that has its own set of ownership and entrepreneurial activity going on there as they come together, and so you really are tapping into a lot of folks who understand [00:08:00] at least the drive and the challenges of business starting, and running, and owning, and all of those things. So, that was a unique thought that hadn't occurred to me before.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin Weitzel: Being that is globally based with the microloans, with the Homes for HOPE being a faith-based organization, are the microloans secular?

Matthew Baehr: You do not have to be a Christian to receive a loan. What happens is the people, the entrepreneurs that we're serving, will join solidarity groups together and they'll cross guarantee each other's loans. So, that's why our repayment rate is so high at 98%, because they're saying, if you can't pay your loan, that's on the rest of us to pay. If you go to one of these meetings and somebody doesn't show up, they'll sit there and wait, or they'll go and get the person and bring them to pay the loan.

What each group does is they go through not just, and then I'll talk a little bit more about this later too, but they don't just receive material resources, but they're being invested in holistically. So, at these meetings to go through what we call the five W's, which are welcome, worship, word, work, and wrap up.

[00:09:00] In the context of that meeting setup, they're hearing biblically-based training, they're worshiping together, praying together, but they're also doing the work of paying back their loans, receiving loans, and then they wrap up the meeting together. So, yeah, anybody can join a group and receive a group. Usually what happens is they're invited by others in the group to join.

Greg Bray: So, tell us more Matt, about the kind of businesses we're talking about here, that you can start for a $300 loan. I just struggle to get my head wrapped around, how much impact 300 bucks can make.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, man, it's anything that you can think of. One story that we love to tell is a woman from Burundi who started a business. She was selling fried bugs on the side of the road, which was a delicacy in her community. What she wanted to do was take a loan for around $20 to buy 20 plastic chairs, you know, those white patio chairs that you see.

If I were making the determination on this loan, I probably wouldn't give that loan. It doesn't sound like a very [00:10:00] viable business, right? $20 to purchase 20 chairs, but because we work with people who are indigenous to the communities that we're serving to make the determination on these loans, we don't have people from the west or like me helicoptering in and saying, Hey, you should get this loan cause I don't know what would work in that community. So, her loan officer knew that she had a good idea. Her idea was to start a wedding business where in that culture, people would plan for their weddings their entire lives, and they would last for weeks at a time and people needed to sit down.

So, she started with this $20 loan to purchase 20 plastic chairs. She payed that loan back, took out several more, and her dream was to send her daughters to college. That's what she wanted to do. So, fast forward to today, she now has 200 chairs, 200 place settings, 200 centerpieces, and three wedding dresses, a small, medium and large that she lends out and her daughters are thriving in school. So, that's one example.

Another example is we had a woman from the Dominican Republic named Ana. She had a fish hatchery where [00:11:00] she was essentially raising beta fish and selling them as pets. Her story is incredible. So, she was robbed twice, which left her bankrupt and she couldn't feed her family. So, her only choice was to up and move to an entirely new community and start over. In that community, she got connected to a local church, which was serving alongside our partner in the Dominican Republic called Esperanza International.

Through that relationship, she was able to access a loan and start her business up again. She grew it, she expanded the footprint of her business. She was able to build a home for her family with the profits, and diversify the fish that she was selling. Then COVID hit, and people didn't have the disposable income to purchase pets for their families.

So, what she did was, she noticed that people in that community had to travel five miles to the next village to purchase central supplies like medicine, food, water, et cetera. So, in partnership with her church and her husband, she opened up a small grocery store in that community, and it thrived [00:12:00] to the point where she was able to provide emergency meal packs and medicine for a thousand families in that community who had lost their jobs due to COVID.

Now, she has dreams of going to business school, turning her current grocery store into a wholesale store to source other stores. Her daughter has joined one of the groups with her and she wants to open up her own store. She's just thriving in the midst of a really challenging time across the world. Yeah, any type of business you can think of has probably been started.

Kevin Weitzel: Can we touch on this fried bugs again? I'm going to tell you why. In my time in the Marine Corps, we spent a year and a half in Africa, and we were on the west coast. I don't remember if it was the Ivory Coast, or if it was Sierra Leone, but off the coast, right off the ocean, there's these flies that they hatch out of the ocean. They drop their eggs in the ocean, whatever they do, and then they just, these big, giant clouds of flies come out of the ocean, and they go out there with these really fine nets and they just swing them around and just catch these flies.

Then they bundle them up, and then there's this big [00:13:00] wad of just flies. They mash them into these little cakes and they're delicious. I got to tell you they were super good. So, when you say they're a delicacy that ain't no lie, man. I'll tell you right now, those little fly patties were delicious.

Matthew Baehr: Who knew Kevin? I've never had one, so that's awesome.

Kevin Weitzel: It's super cool.

Greg Bray: Kevin says he likes to eat, but we're going to new places now.

Kevin Weitzel: They were a tasty treat. They were good.

Greg Bray: This is fascinating to hear some of these stories and to make it so personal, the idea that you're impacting individuals and families on a one-to-one basis. The builders who participate, do they get connected at all to the individuals, or is there a gap there between the donation side and the actual folks that get help?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, that's a great question. We would love for builders to come with us to the countries that we're serving and meet the people that we're serving. Let me tell you a story about that. So, one of our board members, Erin McCall, she and her husband from McCall Homes up in Billings, Montana, they've given me permission to share this story. So, Greg was on one of these [00:14:00] trips and was going to meet one of our entrepreneurs in the Dominican Republic, and he was feeling a little bit up on his high horse. So, he communicated to the translator when they were meeting one of the clients, can you communicate to her who we are, that we're powerful business men from the United States with the capacity to really make a huge impact here.

So, the translator graciously relays this story to the client and the way she responded was oh, I know exactly who you are, Mr. Builder, you're one of my investors. It just knocked him right off his high horse. Then that woman's daughter said, when I buy that plot of land over there and open up my own store, I'm going to hire you to come build it for me. So, it's just a fantastic story about the dignity that the people that we're serving have as they are building and expanding these businesses.

What an opportunity it is for those in the building industry to meet these people, to learn from them. Our founder and I were traveling down to meet Atlantic [00:15:00] Builders a couple of weeks ago, and we'd stopped at a gas station to go to the bathroom. The bathroom was disgusting, the gas station was dirty, the people that were running the store were not very kind, and it just made me think of the training that those who were involved in our program receive about treating people with respect, cleaning your store. If you have a clean store, people are going to be more inclined to come shop at your store than others. I was like, these people that are running this gas station in the United States could benefit and learn from people that are running businesses around the world.

Greg Bray: Matt, it sounded like one of the stories you were sharing was someone that was able to tap into the process multiple times. She bought a few chairs and then she came back after she'd paid that off, so once they're in the program, then it's something that continues to support them ongoing as opposed to a one and done, here's your loan, pay it back, and see you later?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. That's the goal. Although we also are working towards sustainability, so I think I will approach that question from two ways. So, [00:16:00] on the front end we have three ways that we approach our work. We have savings groups, microfinance institutions, and then small to medium enterprise loans.

So, savings groups are generally held in more rural areas where access to traditional financing isn't available at all. That's usually done through local churches, and what happens in those cases is people will join the groups and they will start saving their money together. Then they'll take turns drawing from that money as loans and they'll pay it back. So, with that model, people start with savings, then they take out loans.

With microfinance, it's a little bit more of like brick and mortar financial institutions for people who aren't yet ready to access the traditional banking system. So, in those cases, people take out loans and then they pay them back, but in order to take out another loan, they have to demonstrate an ability to be able to save 20% of the loan that they took out. So, that starts with loans and leads to savings.[00:17:00]

Then with small to medium enterprise, that's for businesses who are ready to scale and hire other employees, et cetera, but they aren't yet ready for traditional banking. That's the three ways that we approach our work. However, at the other end of it, we don't want to create dependency in any way, an unhealthy dependency on Western aid, and so eventually people will have, especially on the savings group side, we will have taught them everything that we have to teach them and they are completely self-sustainable and then they are able to teach it to others.

We love that. Last year, our cost per client jumped. I said it costs us $25 to serve a family for a year. The year before that it was $17. The reason why that jumped is because 30,000 people in Malawi had graduated from everything we could teach them and we're fully sustainable.

Kevin Weitzel: Let's count some beans. So, you're saying that the payback rate is roughly 98%, so only a 2% loss of payback?

Matthew Baehr: That's correct.

Kevin Weitzel: Are these micro loans, are they with interests? Are they interest bearing or are they not with any kind of load?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, we do charge [00:18:00] interest.

Kevin Weitzel: Is it nominal?

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. It's a little bit less than the going rate and far less than the loan sharks.

Kevin Weitzel: Gotcha. Okay. So, basically that almost sustained itself, or I would assume that maybe the interest would compensate for the 2% nonpayment.

Matthew Baehr: Let me explain it this way. So, over the course of our history, we've raised around $200 million, which is incredible. We got started back in 1998. We've been able to disperse $1.36 billion in loans over that time because people are paying the loans back and it's being sent back out. The return on investment is incredible. This is really unique in the nonprofit space. That's one of the reasons why I was so drawn to HOPE International and Homes for HOPE.

I was talking with our COO the other day and our budget for this year, we're going to bring in around $23 million. I don't know if I'm supposed to share this or not, but it's okay. Not Homesfor HOPE. Homes for HOPE is a part of HOPE International. So, HOPE International is going to bring in around $23 million this year, but to do everything that we're doing this calendar year, if we didn't have this [00:19:00] model, it would cost us more than $70 million. Yeah. Those are some beans for you to count.

Kevin Weitzel: Those are some juicy beans.

Greg Bray: Big beans. Yeah, no, I think it's fascinating though Matt, we were having a conversation a few weeks ago, when we met and you did a presentation where you demonstrated the difference between teaching people and helping them grow, especially from an entrepreneurial standpoint, versus more of the handout type model of giving. It's not that it's not generous to give and to just help people, but the teaching and the education, and then the financing to get them over that initial hump.

As a business owner today, without some support when I was getting started, it never would have happened, no matter how much I wanted it. Now, it was a little more than 300 bucks, I'll say that, but without some support, both from a bank and some family and things there, it never would have happened, no matter how much I want it. You got to have some of those resources have access to it, and being able to provide that's amazing.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. [00:20:00] Absolutely. This is part of our founding story, right? So, our founder is Jeff Rutt from Keystone Custom Homes in Pennsylvania. So, he is our founder, and still a builder, as well. So, the way the organization got started was in failure. His church was partnering with a church in the Ukraine. This was after the Berlin wall fell and the nation was really suffering, trying to rebuild. So, they started by sending containers of aid over to this community in Zepperosia, Ukraine, and after a couple of times of doing this, the local pastor came to Jeff and said, you're helping is actually hurting us.

The local businesses here can't compete with free. Is there anything you can do to help ourselves? So, he's a businessman. He came back and they noticed fields of sunflowers surrounding this community. So, they came back, and purchased a sunflower processing machine and wrote up a business plan, and delivered it to the church so that they could make sunflower oil.

They went back the next year, and the machine was sitting in the same corner where they dropped it off gathering dust.[00:21:00] They realized that they had moved from exporting goods to exporting their ideas and that wasn't working either. So, that's when he heard of this concept of microfinance. You've heard the whole give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime.

What we're doing here is we don't have to teach people to fish. They already know. They need investment. They need capital. We need to invest in their fishing business. He did what he knew how to do. He came back, he built a home, partnered with the trades and the suppliers, and he sent 12 loans of $500 each over to this community, and invested them in 12 different businesses.

Everybody paid the loans back. It got out on local radio, and so the person who was managing the program called Jeff and said, Hey I have good news and bad news. The good news is it's working. The bad news is we needed a lot more capital. So, that's how Homes for HOPE was born, and we started partnering with builders around the country to do the same thing.

Kevin Weitzel: Teach a man to fish and then he eats for his life. In the Corps, it was something a little different than that. It was teach a man to fly, he flies that day. You push [00:22:00] a man from the plane, he flies for the rest of his life. A little darker, but it still applies.

The point I wanted to make was that a lot of Americans don't understand is that because of our profit structure, if you look at prescription drugs, what prescription drugs cost us here in United States, don't cost people in other countries the same amount of money. The same thing with resources and businesses.

To start a business here, there's so many rules and regulations and structures that have to be put in place, and just everything, all the little boxes have to be checked. In other countries, it is so much more simplistic, especially third world and developing countries, so much more simplistic, that our dollars stretch a lot further. So, yeah, when you're doing a $200, $300 loan, that can stretch a long, the long way.

Yeah. I think what you're describing is Robert Lupton in his book called Toxic Charity, talks about the five levels of toxic charity where when you're giving somebody handouts this is what happens when they received the first gift there's appreciation. When they are getting the second gift there's anticipation, when's the [00:23:00] next gift coming. When they get the third gift, it's expectation. When they get to the fourth gift, there's entitlement, where's my gift. By the time you've reached the fifth gift, it's full on dependency.

What we're trying to do here is turn that on its head. We're not even giving people dignity, they're already dignified. We're affirming that and investing in them. I think the reason why we approach it this way is it feels good to meet needs, but if we're after a long-term sustainable solution. Let me say this too, there are times where it's necessary to give handouts, in disaster relief, refugee situations, what we're experiencing now with the COVID across the globe. It's appropriate in those cases, but we can't get stuck there. If we want people to truly thrive, we have to eventually move on from that. So anyway, get off my soap box on that a little bit.

Greg Bray: No, Matt. Stay on the soapbox. Yeah. So, one of my questions though is, poverty is a ginormous challenge. It's been with society, I think since [00:24:00] the beginning. It doesn't seem like it's going to go away. How do you keep from just being overwhelmed by the immensity of it all and just spitting in the ocean to say something Kevin might say, to really feel like you're making a difference? How do you get past that, or am I just the only one who might feel that way?

Matthew Baehr: No, I can definitely relate to that. I think what helps the most is to realize that I am not their savior. I will not solve poverty. I'm not the answer to poverty. America is not the answer to poverty. I think there needs to be a humility as we approach something like this.

Furthermore, I would say Homes for HOPE and HOPE International are not the heroes in these stories. The people we're investing in are the ones who are caring for their children day by day. They're starting businesses, they're creating jobs, they're transforming their communities.

I think it's fair to say that most of the people we serve have never even heard of HOPE. They know their church, their friends, their trusted loan officers. At one point during the [00:25:00] height of COVID last year, we had entrepreneurs, loan recipients, who were calling their loan officers, asking for prayer. I'm struggling, I won't be able to pay my loan back, my family is sick, can you pray for me? Can you imagine calling your banker and asking for prayer at a moment like that? It just speaks to the relationship there. So, there's that, and then also, the fact that there are many other organizations that are also doing excellent work. So, that's what I love about the humanitarian and development space.

We all realize that the task is too big for any one of our organizations to solve ourselves. So we are for each other, we root for each other and we work together. We're not in this alone. We can't fall into the trap of drinking our own Kool-Aid and then thinking that we're more significant than we are. We need each other, and I invite people to come join us.

Greg Bray: I'm inspired, Matt. It's inspiring and you do such a great job of making it personal. How do people get involved? How do they join you? I think that's the next big question.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah. So, I would say a couple of [00:26:00] things. Don't just throw a bunch of money and resources at something as complicated as poverty, and then pound your chest saying, look at what I've done. One action I would recommend is to start forming relationships. True, holistic flourishing takes place in the context of healthy relationships over time. So, we can't run to the quick fixes. There are none. We need to build relationships. So, I think that's the first step.

Then practically, getting involved with Homes for HOPE if people are interested in doing that, I would say three things. I would say, tell your friends and introduce them to me. I'll take as many referrals as possible. The second thing, come with us to see the work and meet the people that we serve. I would love for you to do that even before you consider doing a project. If that's not possible for you, then I would say, explore starting a Homes for HOPE project with us.

Some of the distinctives about our work that I love is that we try and not interrupt a builder's normal processes on a build. They go through their normal process. They're building the homes with their [00:27:00] people and their communities, on their lots, selling it to their buyers. So, I think a lot of that is appealing. The impact they can have with one house serving thousands of families around the world. Yeah. Feel free to talk to me about starting a project. First come with us and build relationships.

Kevin Weitzel: So, if somebody say with large sideburns, isn't actually a home builder, but he could build a mad bicycle. Is there a Bicycles for HOPE?

Matthew Baehr: There's a whatever for HOPE you want to do it is welcome. We had a little girl last year who did a lemonade stand for HOPE.

Kevin Weitzel: Get out of town.

Matthew Baehr: Yeah, a just did a lemonade stand in her front yard and raised some money and sent it into HOPE.

Kevin Weitzel: Well, then, let's chat then. I'll build a bicycle. We'll sell it off, and uh, I'll follow Steve Brooks' lead in the whole sale. Everything to it will go to Homes for HOPE.

Matthew Baehr: Love it. My kids need a bike, so maybe...

Kevin Weitzel: There we go.

Greg Bray: Kevin deals with fancy bikes, Matt. You [00:28:00] may want something a little simpler for your kids.

Matthew Baehr: Okay.

Greg Bray: Well, Matt, if someone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Yeah. The easiest way is to go to our website, which is homes, the number four. Dot org. It's not hard to find my contact information on there, or you can just look me up on LinkedIn. Kevin's a LinkedIn junkie, right? So I am, and Greg and I are connected on LinkedIn too.

We'll drop some links in the show notes@billermarketingpodcast.com as well for people to find those as well.

Matt, thank you so much. This has been a fascinating conversation. Loved the personal stories, love the concept and how you guys are making a difference. Thank you for being out there on the front lines and trying to make the world a better place

Matthew Baehr: for the opportunity to be able to share about this.

I'm grateful for you and the work you do.

Greg Bray: And thank you everybody for listening today to The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine

Kevin Weitzel: and I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse. Thank you.