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20 The End of the Third Party Cookie - Erik Martinez

The End of the Third Party Cookie - Erik Martinez

Erik Martinez, Vice President of Blue Tangerine, joined the Home Builder Digital Marketing podcast to talk about the death of the third-party cookie. Erik, Greg, and Kevin chat about upcoming digital marketing issues such as new privacy regulations and how they affect digital marketing strategies. Erik’s in-depth knowledge and digital marketing expertise are evident throughout the entire episode. Enjoy this information-packed episode!

Erik’s specialties span paid and organic search engine marketing, email marketing, website development and management, digital data mining and analysis, and direct marketing. On top of helping home builders, Erik has succeeded in managing direct and digital marketing programs for multichannel retailers in niche home decor, running enthusiasts, women's luxury apparel, food gifts, agricultural products, and business-to-business lead generation.

Erik merged his consulting service, Triad Analytics in 2016 with Blue Tangerine to bolster the company's digital marketing expertise to further meet customers' growing needs. As a website design, development, and digital marketing agency all rolled into one – from mobile responsive websites, SEO, and PPC to email and social media, Blue Tangerine provides full-service solutions to home builders, online retailers, and businesses. With a focus on providing results to customers, Erik and Greg, the two owners of Blue Tangerine, continue to grow Blue Tangerine now employing nearly 30 team members. 

Show Notes

Guest Links

Erik's Linkedin

Blue Tangerine

Erik@BlueTangerine.com

 

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Production by: Josh Williamson and KT Maschler 

Editing by: KT Maschler 

Transcript

Greg Bray:  [00:00:00]Hello everybody. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine 

Kevin Weitzel: and I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse 

and where you are thrilled today to be joined by Erik Martinez. Erik is the [00:01:00] vice president and co-owner at the Blue Tangerine. So he's my business partner and someone I've known for a long time.

So we're really excited that Erik's made time to join us today. Welcome, Erik. 

Erik Martinez: Thanks, Greg, it's a pleasure to be here. What are we talking about today? 

Greg Bray: Well, we're going to get into that, but right now we're gonna talk about you. 

Erik Martinez: Oh

Greg Bray: So tell us, tell us a little bit about you, Erik, for those who haven't met you yet. Just a quick introduction. Who's who's Erik? 

Erik Martinez: Who is Erik? Erik is a, a 20, gosh, I almost don't want to say that it's over 20 years folks. Um, Direct marketing specialists was where I grew up. I started in the catalog industry and migrated into eCommerce back in 1999 and built our first database enabled eCommerce website in 1999.

Um, turned it on, and immediately, you know, I started selling stuff online and like, Oh, wow, this is kinda cool. And then, you know, we evolved from there. So I've [00:02:00] spent the last, uh, 20 years really. Working in the direct marketing and digital marketing spaces and working to combine those, the sales and analytics, and trying to help our clients grow their businesses and both of those channels and mediums. And it's changed quite a bit over that period of time. 

Kevin Weitzel: Now I've heard through social circles that you collect doilies. Now besides the doily collection, that probably a massive doily collection. Cause I'm pretty sure that's what you're doing. Um, tell me, tell me in the, in the listening crowd, something about Erik, that nobody knows, maybe something, not even, business-related 

Erik Martinez: Something about Erik that nobody knows. Um, well, I don't know if there's that much to know, but probably the, besides my doily collection, which I share with Kevin, by the way, Yeah, we have a doily collection exchange going. Probably the, uh, the most, the interesting thing is I like to, uh, when I [00:03:00] have spare time, read us Syfy and fantasy novels. 

  Kevin Weitzel: You know, besides, you know, everybody knows Blue Tangerine that you guys build websites. And honestly, admittedly, I've got a ton of partners that have used you and highly recommend you. But what other services do you guys do?

Erik Martinez: Um, you know, we are a digital marketing agency as well, so we are heavy into pages search, right? We, we, we do a lot of Google and Microsoft ads. We do geo-fence advertising as well. Uh, we do full service, email marketing. It's not the biggest part of our business, but we have a small practice in that business.

We, uh, SEO practitioners. So we do SEO as well. Um, and probably the area that we probably tout the least, but I think is one of our big strengths is we do a lot of data analysis and consulting for our clients, really looking at what information they are collecting, how is it working and [00:04:00] advising them on how to make it better.

And that is a big piece of our business. 

Kevin Weitzel: I was a little worried about today's podcast because I am at self-admitted computer idiot. I don't know much about how computers work. I get the general gist. I get the ones and zeros and I get the, you know, how the internet works and how the data flows over lines and that there's firewalls and everything else.

But honestly, a lot of it's intimidating and I'm 90% certain that I'm not alone in how intimidating this is, you know? Cause you know, on the news recently, it's this whole thing about cookies and all that junk. So, Greg, where do you want this to head to where you're not going to lose somebody, a simpleton such as myself.

Greg Bray: Well, that's why we invited Erik to talk about it because he's going to do a great job of explaining it. Cause, cause he's a teacher at heart. He doesn't want to admit that either, but, but that's something I know about Erik. Cause he likes to teach, um, Well, yeah, today, today, we want to talk more about what we call the third party cookie.

And I know Erik, that's something that you and I have been paying attention to related to, you [00:05:00] know, kind of the eCommerce world, but it also impacts the home builders and you know, it's something that's coming up here in the next couple of years and we're even calling it the death of the third-party cookie.

Maybe we didn't come up with that name, but somebody else did. But, uh, so, so let's talk a little bit about cookies before Kevin gets hungry. Um, and, and clarify, you know, what, what is a cookie and what are we, what are we talking when we talk about cookies? 

Erik Martinez: Sure. You know, I think the simplest way is to define this first for somebody like Kevin, who says he's technology.

What was that? I don't answer that question. Um, I think the simplest way is, you know, every time you visit a website, there's a little file information that gets dropped on the, your machine. And if you visit a specific website, let's say you visit google.com and you're not logged in, right.

They're trying to collect some information about what you're doing on their website. And so they drop this file and then they give it a session ID and some kind of numeric value [00:06:00] that basically says there's a person on my site. And, they collect pieces of information. Like what type of search did I just type?

Did I add, did I expand the search? Did I actually click through one of the listings, on the page? Was that a paid listing or was it an organic listing? So it's just a file of information. That's what a cookie is. And there's really a couple of different kinds, right? There are first-party cookies and third-party cookies.

When we talk about the death of the third-party cookie. Third-party cookies are when you allow other companies to drop information and collect information on your site. So the most commonly known example are the retargeting sites. So, you know, services like Adderall or Critio prior to today have been heavily, used third party cookies. And then basically it's the idea that we drop this piece of information. We collect some information about that user. We get to like that information across multiple sites, right. And we bring that [00:07:00] data and aggregate it into some information that we then turn around to use, to deliver ads to particular audiences.

And so it seems pretty harmless. 

Kevin Weitzel: Is that why when I go on to a website, like, let's say, go look at Bose headphones and a, then I'm on Facebook. You know, the next day I'm seeing ads for Bose. Is that, is that because of the cookies pathway, the crumbs that were left, if you will? 

Yeah, absolutely. They're collecting behavioral data about what you're doing on the Boses website and maybe you visited Boses and Panasonic and, uh, Sonos that same day.

So all of a sudden they've got all this data and says, okay, next time we see Kevin on a new site, I'm going to serve them up an ad about Bose or Panasonic or Sonos, depending on who's bidding on that particular property. that information is being used on other websites to target you with specific offers.

Greg Bray: So it sounds like cookies are evil. 

[00:08:00] Erik Martinez: Yeah,

Greg Bray: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw a leading question. Right? Are cookies bad? 

Erik Martinez: No, they're not bad. I mean, you know, there have been instances in the history of the internet, which is really not that long where companies are collecting really personally private information.

Imagine somebody visiting, um, a hospital website, pay a bill or they're visiting, uh, visiting a specialist, doctor website. That information, just having that little bit of information can tell you a lot about the type of condition that that particular person has. And then you get the ad the next day that says, Hey, I've got the magic pill for that particular condition that feels personally invasive.

Think about visiting a bank website. Or any other place where you have very private information. So in that sense, Greg, yes, that could be considered evil, but the real reality is most of most advertisers. Yeah. [00:09:00] Or just trying to deliver more relevant advertising to the customers and customers are demanding it.

Okay. Something like 69% of consumers surveyed says that they want to get more relevant and personalized advertising from the companies that they do business with. How do it, how do we do that? If we don't know anything about the context in which the consumer is interacting with that brand. 

Kevin Weitzel: So how do people to build websites and stuff separate the big brother factor versus the convenience and uh, well, the convenience factor of getting that dialed-in data. 

Erik Martinez: Great question. So think about it this way though. A third-party cookie is really browser driven, right? It is information stored on your individual computer as opposed to the website. So that's really the distinction between first-party data and third party data. You visit boses you saw you fill in a [00:10:00] form and say, Hey, I would like to get an email. Or direct mail or whatever type of communication from Bose that is first-party data that Bose then has on their site. Right. But just the fact that I visited that medical site, I was talking earlier. Now you've dropped a cookie on my machine that the advertising network, and then.

Say, Hey, I've got another person in the, in the audience for this type of product and you got people bidding on that. That's a different experience, right? They didn't give permission to the advertiser to target them. It's information that's stored on a computer. And so what's happening is with all the privacy legislation starting with GDPR in Europe and CCPA in California.

And there are many more States right now that have legislation on the books to deal with data privacy issues. Third-party cookies are planned to be phased out currently Safari and Firefox [00:11:00] already suppressed them. By the fall, you can re-enable them if you want in those browsers. And next year, Google is going to phase them out completely.

So all of a sudden, all this third party data, which by the way, is the easiest to deploy an aggregate is going to disappear. And that's for consumer privacy. Really? That's, what's driving it. Consumers are saying, Hey, I no longer want you to know that I am a diabetic because I am on a site that sells diabetic supplies or that I have a family member that's diabetic.

I no longer want you to know that information and then will want to no longer want to receive ads from random companies because of that,   

Kevin Weitzel: So if you have, if I'm a builder out there and I have to start thinking about how I need to adhere to the CCPA CCPA, right? 

Erik Martinez: CCPA. Yeah. 

Kevin Weitzel: CCPA guidelines, you know, cause they're gonna, they're going to be nationwide. I mean, you have any time, people are so sick and tired of all their data, just being kind of a stir it around and, and monetize without them even being, [00:12:00] knowing, even being aware of it.

Um, what can it builder or do. Can they reach out to you to find out, you know, how they can better poise themselves too, to be prepared for that? 

Erik Martinez: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, these are things we talk about every day, right? We talk about the privacy legislation or ADA compliance, or, you know, there's a myriad of other issues that are coming up in today's, um, ecosystem.

And we as digital marketers and advertisers and website builders have to be in touch with at all. So we take a look at those issues and we try to advise our clients as to that best strategy and way forward, um, for them to comply. It really compliance isn't as hard as people think. What makes compliance really hard, Kevin is that most people systems are so old that they can't make the system do what it wasn't intended to do efficiently. And [00:13:00] so right now, you know, I've got a client, um, out in the Chicago area who, you know, they get GDPR requests to delete data and they're like, I can't do it. I just can't do it. I physically cannot eliminate that information from my system in any kind of efficient way.

And so it's real, it's a real problem right now. 

Kevin Weitzel: Is that when somebody would, you know, a company would have to consider it, you know, revamping the entire system, kind of like a good example. And tell me if this is right, if I've got a program that I'm using to manage my, my business and it's, DOS-based, you know, in today's computer world, you're going to laugh at that and say, man, you are so far behind.

You have to absolutely change your system. You know, kind of like a complete reboot. Right. 

Erik Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that would be the advice, but you know, there's a cost to these things too, right? Sometimes it's cheaper to deal with what you do, what you have versus completely replacing it. And that's really, you [00:14:00] know, that particular client is on a system that was implemented actually by me over 20 years ago.

Um, And it's a major, you know, it's, it's, it's a half a million to a million-dollar investment to replace it completely. So it's not a, it's not chump change money has to come from somewhere. So sometimes the easiest answer is, Hey, you know what? Well, we get that GDPR request. And what we're going to do is they're going to override all the name and address information with bogus information, and that's the way to deal with it.

Is that perfect, no.  Is that going to accomplish the goal in the short term? Probably. And it doesn't cost a million dollars to do, 

Kevin Weitzel: but even when you're talking about just revamping your system, your website for a home builder, you know, yes, there is a cost involved in it, but how much is that cost in comparison to fines from the government for not adhering to these policies? 

Erik Martinez: Well, I think that remains to be [00:15:00] seen Kevin. I don't think there's enough case law on this yet to understand what the government's going to do. If they're going to give companies a second chance, you know, these laws come in to place and they have a phase-in period of a couple of years, but the laws really never get publicized all that heavily until they're about to get them.

So most companies are typically two or three years behind the laws and then court systems two to three years behind that. So we're just gonna be at the very beginning of seeing the legislation and the case law developed that dictates how companies change their behavior. Reality is that's enough period of time for any system to look at a revamp of your technology, but you have to have a long, you have to have a longterm systems plan in place to support that

Kevin Weitzel: So, so how about this? How does this affect, you know, cause of the CCPA, I mean, that we've as his outhouse, we've already been affected by that because if we do work [00:16:00] for really large national builders that have a certain number of employees or whatever, a certain amount of revenue, uh, we have to, you know, basically states that we are following those guidelines.

How does this affect the home building industry? To where they have to follow these CCPA guidelines, because eventually, typically any of those kinds of laws that start in California tend to flow. 

Erik Martinez: Yeah. And the, and, and it's, it's, it's going to happen. It may take 10 or 15 years for it to fully deploy across the country.

But once you have 20 States doing it, the probability is that the other 30 are gonna fall in line pretty quickly. Right. So. What that means for home builders and all advertisers is one that your systems need to be able to deal with data privacy issues. So remember when Facebook said, Hey, you know, GDPR came out and now you can access all the data we've collected on you.

And you can delete it. Remember how many of you have actually gone and. 

Kevin Weitzel: I honestly printed that report, I did. And it was ridiculous. [00:17:00] I apparently spend a lot of time on Facebook. 

Erik Martinez: Yeah, there's millions and millions of rows of data. I mean, you just think about every time you access the app. You interact with messenger or whatnot.

That's a data point. That's getting collected somewhere in someone's database and someone's server. And it's got contextual information about what you're doing and not doing what your interests are and what your interests are not liking a brand in a newsfeed, gives them a data point, and add you to an audience group.

Right. Essentially. So. But now all of a sudden, you're going to have to comply with the idea that, Hey, I'm doing this advertising and collecting this information. And the very first and most important thing is I need to have the permission of the user. And that's probably the big distinction. So I've been a direct marketer now for we'll just say over 20 years.

Add in the direct marketing industry, it's always been a big deal for people who didn't want to get your catalog or your direct mail piece. Right. And as an advertiser, that's great. [00:18:00] Because guess what? That, that catalog or mail piece is expensive for every time for every thousand you send out, you get 20 responses.

Well, if I send out a thousand catalogs and an average cost to run somewhere between 50 and 60 cents, we're talking some real money here, folks, right. To, to get 20 responses. So in the digital world, it has been really, really, really inexpensive to do basically the same concept. And now the consumers are saying, Hey, you know what?

I don't want you to send me that advertising anymore. Hold off. Because I just don't want to get that, that message from this company or this group of companies and in the direct mail world, we were like, yeah. Okay. You don't want to get my catalog? Cool. That saves me money. And it's good for you. Right. And now the digital marketing world is starting to get, watch up and say, Oh, okay consumers don't want to get everything I put out. And that's okay. They get more control over their data. So the, so the [00:19:00] implication is everybody's systems have to support that ecosystem, where the customer can call you up and say, Hey, I got an ad from you, or I got the direct mail piece from you and whatnot.

I want to know what data you collected on me, and then I want you to delete it. I don't want you to interact with me digitally anymore. And companies have to comply and those laws now have teeth, right? You get sued. Now I will say that with the caveat that like anything in the world, there's case law that has to come into a precedence.

And so what's going to happen is somebody who's gonna push the boundaries and they're going to get sued and probably going to be a class-action suit. And it's going to be against somebody like Google or a really large national builder or a really large national retailer because an attorney out there sees an opportunity to make a point and make some money at the same time.

Kevin Weitzel: So I actually have two questions, one, and pardon my ignorance on this. Uh, it's just, it may, uh, expose some of my ignorance to [00:20:00] computer world, but is, are these laws that affect, you know, cookies and third-party cookies going to affect? Like geofencing. Or is that a completely different beast? 

Erik Martinez: It could affect parts of things like geo-fencing.

So geo-fencing at least the way Blue Tangerine deploys it. Geo-fencing is primarily based on a Bluetooth ID, a device ID. Right. You walk into a fence. let's say I walked into a Shea homes community and, and toll brothers goes across the street. Like, Hey, I want you to come to visit my community, serve up, serve up an ad on an app, right.

That is generally done by device ID, but the retargeting component. Gets a little grayer, right? Because I have a device ID and now I potentially, if you're logged into your Google network or, you know, whatever, all of a sudden I can get an ad on my browser and I can get an ad. And my email, if [00:21:00] they can identify me.

And so there is some risk that those components could get shut down by these types of laws. Now, the good news is on the data that we can, 95% of the interactions are on a mobile device. So it's probably not going to happen. 

Greg Bray: So just to kind of, kind of summarize some of the things you guys have been talking about, and there's, I think we've got kind of two different related topics that we're kind of bouncing between. So one is privacy laws that are evolving, you know, there's the one in Europe and in California, we foresee the need for those or that they will probably expand that we're going to have to all be paying closer attention. The other one is the actual technical issue of the cookies being blocked by browsers.

That is starting soon, regardless of what happens with future laws, you know, that the browser companies have decided that they want to give consumers more control of the way these tracking pixels or [00:22:00] cookies are used. Um, and they're turning it on by default so that the consumer, the browser user has to manually go re-enable it.

Whereas the ability to block has actually probably been there, but it was not the default setting. So you had to go in and turn it off. And now it's going to be blocked by default and got to turn it back on. So, so I just kind of want to differentiate there. That one from a legal standpoint, that's evolving, but the cookie blocking is coming, whether we like it or not, and most people are not going to go back and mess with those settings.

They don't, they don't know. It's like, Oh gosh, I haven't seen the ad for so-and-so in a while. Maybe my browser settings are wrong and I need to go turn that back on again so I can see those ads. Um, so Erik to kind of move into a question then, as, as someone who is looking, looking at my marketing strategy, you know, and where retargeting and some of these other tools are an important part of that, what, what kinds of things should I be foreseeing that might be different, [00:23:00] you know, a year from now?

Erik Martinez: Well, one, one, um, there's a lot of debate on this topic about how this is going to evolve, right? So if the third party cookies are gone and you have heavily relied on that digital advertising strategy, then what do I do? Um, There's the bait, you know, there are companies out there who can associate, um, information about you in the background with your offline data and combine offline data with your online data.

So the example would be I visit bose.com cause I'm interested in some high-end speakers. And I go and visit the high-end speaker category. And then I leave, there are technologies out there that can basically say, Hey, you know when you leave your digital breadcrumb looks like a person that I've seen somewhere else before.

Because they're deploying these [00:24:00] technologies that can basically identify you in the background. It's a little black box. They don't tell you exactly how they do it, but there are identifiers and intent signals all throughout the internet, device IDs, and whatnot. So maybe you access that, that store on your phone and somewhere along the way you, uh, you paid, uh, a utility bill on that phone.

Guess what I now know, like Kevin Weitzel is the guy who was on my own page. I, well, at least I know that your phone was, I don't know if it was you or your kid. Right. But I know that Kevin Kevin's likely, and because you entered it on a utility website, I now know your, your full name and address, and I can match that address to that activity on that device ID.

And I can come up with a score that basically says it's a high probability that this is the person and they're at a home address. 

Kevin Weitzel: Wow.

Erik Martinez: That's kinda crazy stuff. Right. So all of a sudden [00:25:00] I can deliver, I can deliver it. There are all sorts of kinds of cool advertising, both online and offline using that piece of information.

So that is an example of a cookie list transaction. Digital advertising. Greg, did I answer your full question, or did that stray a little bit? 

Greg Bray: I think that the key is if I'm looking at next year's marketing strategy, do I suddenly need to say, Oh, retargeting is gone? You know, I can't do that anymore. Do I need, am I not going to be able to run ads on other websites?

You know? Um, any, any thoughts on it? 

Erik Martinez: sorry, I got a little bit sidetracked with all the cool stuff that we can do now, but there are these data aggregators that collect that device information and the associated information. You gotta realize there's an ecosystem of places where you have verifiable information about a user, those include utility companies. Those include, um, other places of business, you know, large advertisers. [00:26:00] Uh, large, uh, retailers that you might enter information can share some of this information with these third parties and they aggregate all this data. And again, they provide, uh, an algorithm that basically says You are Greg Bray at some address and someplace in the United States. Okay. So. With that, you can now deliver advertising across that. So it's not going away. It's just how we're delivering that ad experience, it's a very different technology. It's not going to be cookie-based. It's not going to be based on that third party cookie that got dropped on your computer anonymously anymore.

It's going to be based on verifiable information and that's the key element of all of this. We have to have verifiable information. So, what that means from a strategy standpoint is that you have to have a data strategy around your business. What information am I collecting it, collecting who, which partners am I sharing that information with?

And what information do I get back as a result realized that [00:27:00] none of these data aggregators will ever share the fact that they have your address, Kevin or Greg? We won't ever know that as an advertisement that will always remain anonymous to the advertiser does protect individual privacy. So you're, you're trying to separate the two issues between cookie list advertising, um, and privacy laws, but they're, they go hand in hand, right?

So these, these technologies don't go away, but. How do we get, is anyone data aggregator gonna have all the information. That's the big question. Google is the biggest data aggregator out there. You have information on millions and billions of people, because what do you do when you get your Android phone?

You sign in to your Google account. Right? How many of you here have Google accounts? I know, I know Greg does. I know I do. Kevin. I assume you have a Google account. 

Kevin Weitzel: I do.

Erik Martinez: Do you stay signed in that, on your phone. 

Kevin Weitzel: Yeah, I do. And that [00:28:00] actually brings me up to a question in there and I don't mean, and they interrupt you, but part of the responsibility of the privacy falls, hand in hand with the devices that we use, because when you sign up and get an Apple phone or an Android phone, you know, and when you get onto Google and you'll start searching stuff, your constantly putting out the bits of your own information that you put out there and you happen to sign a little checkbox that says I'm willing to follow all the rules and guidelines that these guys have to follow by using this device.

But I also get the conveniences of it, knowing where I'm at. So now I don't have to carry around a map anymore. It's on my phone. I don't have to have my address book anymore. It's on my phone. All those conveniences that are there, my emails, right at Beck and call. So. There is a certain level of responsibility that falls onto the user.

But I think that the, where the whole cookies thing is coming in is that there are some subversive uses of it. And some rather big brother uses of it that people want to have [00:29:00] legislated to control, to keep people following the same rules. 

Erik Martinez: Correct. So, and that really is the thrust of it. People have to be responsible for the data, which apps they use.

Do they know what app data is being collected and shared on there, on their phone? Most of us don't most location services. You're talking about maps 80% over 80% of people have location services turned on. That's turned on by default. You get asked though when you set up your phone, Do you want to allow location services, and more and more apps are now asking if you will allow them to use location services, while you're interacting with their application. So it is changing the user is gaining more control. And with that control though, then the advertisers had actually actually ended up with better data. Because I now have the user's permission to use their information, to deliver relevant experiences back to them.

And [00:30:00] that's better for everybody. Right. But that ecosystem takes the time to evolve. So back to Greg's question of, do I have to stop doing what I'm doing? No, but you're going to have to change your practices. You're going to have to find partners that have verifiable and permission-based data. And that's the critical component right there permission-based data, meaning it can't be just collected in the background without the user's knowledge and privacy policy on your site that says, this is exactly what we're doing with the information.

If you want to opt-out, you have that ability and you have to make that explicit moving forward. California, that is true today. That is not true in the other 49 States at the moment. But we know at some point all your systems, all your advertising systems, all your data collection systems are going to have to, we have these mechanisms built-in, in order to support that.

So, Greg, yes, I can still do geo fencing advertising [00:31:00] and I can still, um, do display retargeting on certain networks. It's just that the data has to be verifiable and permissible. In the future. And that's going to be a tricky thing because there's no agreement on how to do that. How do we know that Kevin Weitzel, if he goes to the bose and he goes to the Panasonic and they're on two different networks, Bose can't necessarily target him?

On pant on the Panasonic site or on another mechanism. Cause they don't know he was there because that universal ID was not shared between those two networks. That's inherently the big challenge with the advertising. So again, I come from a direct marketing background where I used to rent other company's names to support mailings and is it's basically a brokerage in that scenario.

Like you've got these brokerages. They're probably going to be AI machine learning-based brokerages that are, that are negotiating the data exchanges in real [00:32:00] the time to say, Hey, I've got permission-based data. This person is in this audience, serve them this ad. Right. But now I've got multiple networks and it's going to be a little bit fragmented for a little bit of time until like all things.

These things will get aggregated and compile back together. So there's only going to be a few big data aggregators out there. And that's actually probably from my perspective, the bigger concern, Google has a chunk of that data Bing has a chunk of that data. Apple has a good chunk of that data, but you can't get access to that data, right.

As a third part as a marketer. 

Greg Bray: So, Erik, do you anticipate. That there may be a change in the costs of advertising as some of this plays out. Is this going to raise the price of what is going to take for me to get my message in front? Because maybe I gotta, I gotta be on multiple networks or these networks are going to have some additional fees to kind of share some things.

And maybe this is a little too far down the line. 

[00:33:00] Erik Martinez: I think you will see a short term price increase because these networks are going to have to invest in new technologies. To support permiss permission-based advertising, and they're going to have to spend money building relationships with first started first-party data collectors, like individual websites to get permission, to get that data, to put an ad back on that site.

So, um, I think probably in the short term, you will see inventory shrink. And it says less than less supply, higher price. Right. But people will figure this out and there'll be more inventory down there.

 Greg Bray: The one thing we know how to do it, sweet we've we know how to put ads in front of people. Right. And everybody wants to get their message out. So we'll find a way the advertisers will find it. 

Erik Martinez: We will find a way 

Kevin Weitzel: I, 100% appreciate you. Dumbing down, if you will, uh, this subject to this to me, cause I'm a, I'm a mouth breathing, knuckle dragger, and a, and I totally appreciate that you [00:34:00] dumb this down to where I could at least understand what you're talking about. 

Greg Bray: Well, Erik, we really are appreciative of your time today. We're kind of getting close to our, to our limit here. One, just a couple more questions for you though, before we go. If you, if you had any advice for our listeners today, just kind of that you know, wisdom from Erik, but what would you want to share?

Erik Martinez: On this topic or any topic? 

Greg Bray: Any topic, your, your, your chance to just whatever, whatever you 

want to share. 

Erik Martinez: Oh man, that's loaded. That's a loaded question. Um, you know, I think the, at the end of the day, you need to have a technology plan. Um, most companies now, but there's a lot of companies. There's a lot of small companies that are out there that don't have the technology plan in place.

That expands beyond me, the immediate needs of my staff need a computer and I need access to the network. Right? We need, they have a technology plan that expands to three, five years so we can understand the types of changes that we need to put [00:35:00] in our systems because it affects the entire ecosystem. We are a data-driven society today.

All our marketing is data-driven, all of our business and financial transactions are data-driven system, connectivity, its a complicated environment. And I think a lot of companies kind of think like IT's just, you know, a black hole of expenditures that doesn't have any revenue impact. The reality is it is a strategic weapon you can use to your advantage. And if you start doing the hard work of connecting your systems and building better technology and how those systems talk to each other,  um, you can be a heck of a lot more efficient than your competition. And I can tell you when your margins are tight, those companies that are more efficient, survive longer than their competition.

So, if I were to give anyone any advice is focus, put some intention on this area because it doesn't seem important today, but it will be important in the future. 

[00:36:00] Greg Bray: Awesome. That's a great one. I appreciate that. So, Erik, if somebody wants to connect with you and talk more about these topics or dollies or whatever else is on their mind, um, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

Erik Martinez: Uh, best way would be via email erik@bluetangerine.com.  That's Erik with a K otherwise you'll get the other Eric at Blue Tangerine, which is with a C. He spells his wrong, um, Erik with an at BlueTangerine.com. Love to chat with any of you. 

Greg Bray: Well, Erik, thanks again so much for your time today. And thank you, everybody, for listening in.

Please join us again next time. I'm Greg Bray from Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel :  And I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse.

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